The Pioneers Club

Mindset Mastery: Exploring the Power of a Growth Mindset

• Monika Lerch & Patrick Öffl • Season 2 • Episode 10

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Whether you’re going outside of your comfort zone, facing a big challenge, or striving for success, understanding the difference between a fixed and a growth mindset is crucial.

Join us as we explore what it means to have a growth mindset and why it's important, based on renowned psychologist Carol Dweck's book "Mindset".


You'll learn:

4:48 - What does it mean to have a fixed vs. growth mindset? And how does it affect your success & growth?

18:40 - Why a growth mindset is not the same as just being open-minded or curious

23:31 - How to let go of a deterministic approach and use praise of effort & process as a way to step into a growth mindset

26:56 - The importance of delegating & staying focused while having a growth mindset

29:25 - Putting it into practice: How to shift from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset


This episode offers valuable tools to help you thrive and start transforming your mindset today! 

After our summer break, we will be back with new and exciting topics. So, enjoy this episode and we can't wait to join you again soon!


Want more empowering tips & insights? Then join my FREE Monthly Mindset Mentoring and subscribe to my newsletter to get weekly mindset tips on how to gain confidence, clarity, resilience & ease - directly in your inbox.
https://www.monikalerch.com/newsletter/

Also, let us know, Which question would you want us to address in the next episode? Connect with us in our DMs or send us your question directly: https://www.monikalerch.com/send-your-question/

Your Host:
Monika Lerch
https://www.monikalerch.com/
Linkedin: /in/monikalerch/
Instagram: @themonikalerch

Your Co-Host:
Patrick Öffl
https://www.amikifilms.com/
Linkedin: /in/patrickoeffl/
Instagram: @patrickoeffl

Monika This is the Pioneers Club podcast. 


Patrick The community podcast for driven entrepreneurs and leaders. 


Monika Here you can connect with like minded people, create a sense of belonging and gain more agency in your daily life. Hi, my name is Monika and I'm your host. I help impact driven freelancers, entrepreneurs and leaders live their full potential and go from feeling overwhelmed, stuck and confused to being confident, clear-headed and focused as they go after their goals. As a mindset and systemic coach, I focus primarily on topics such as confidence, high performance, self coaching and self leadership and use my mindfulness based and systemic approach to help my clients thrive with more ease. 


Patrick And I'm your co-host, Patrick, an entrepreneur just like you. I'm an international media producer working on live sports, premium documentaries and digital content. I help people bring their stories to life and work with a global network of partners to create engaging content. I live through the topics of our podcast, just like you, and I will try to ask the questions you might have. 


So welcome back to a new episode of the Pioneers Club podcast. It's the beginning of summer. The end of a quarter. The end of the first six months of the year. Very busy time for all of us. So at the end of this quarter, there's a lot of things to do, like tax wise, you have to set up for the second half of the year a lot of deadlines coming your way. And there are also a lot of challenges coming your way. When you think like, can I do that? 


Monika Yes. I don't know how about you? But I have been getting a lot of newsletters with the words it's the end of the first semester practically, or it's the middle of the year. And what did you do to reach your goals? So it is also oftentimes for us a point of reflection where we check in with our goals, how much we wanted to achieve, and then we realize whether we progressed in the right way. What worked out what didn't? And if you set your goals correctly, then you should actually not have achieved everything that you wanted. But how does this affect you? This is part of the fixed and growth mindset discussion that we are going to have, as we are going to confront our feelings or our perception about ourselves and our potential and capabilities. 


Patrick And there's one quote that we talked about before we recorded this that I really liked, and I'm hoping we're getting into this. You can explain it in detail. It's something Henry Ford said. It's whether you think you can or you think you can’t, you’re always right. What does he want to say with that? 


Monika So that's something that a lot of us are experiencing right now or going through. We have our end of year goals. So the things that we want to achieve until December 2024 or January 2025, and now we are at this point where we are drawing a line, we are checking in with our progress, with our achievements, with our milestones. And there is, of course, this mindset that is constantly running in the background. Do you think that you can do it or not? And depending on whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. Henry Ford was so precise with that. And then Carol Dweck, the world renowned Stanford University psychologist, coined the terms fixed mindset and growth mindset and gave us the tools and the language to actually understand what Henry Ford said with that. And this is that you can take different approaches to what you think that you are capable of, to seeing and viewing and assessing your potential. And this is based on what you are able to do now or what you are able to do in the future. 


Patrick So basically, the mindset shapes our belief whether we can do something or cannot do something, whether we can change or grow. And she has coined that term. And that book is quite interesting because it… it feels like a very simple topic in the beginning. And we'll come to the misconceptions later on in the podcast. But there are some things when you go into the book when you feel like, oh, I already know that. I've heard that term so many times, and I know exactly what this book is going to tell me because, okay, I'm, for instance, open minded and I'm trying out new things. So, oh yeah, I have that growth mindset, when in fact it's a bit more complicated than that. And that's where the book is getting interesting. When it throws all these things at you and you're like, okay, maybe it's not that simple. Maybe I'm not 100% there, or maybe I'm partly there in certain areas and not in some other areas. 


Monika So let's go back to the beginning, maybe to make it more specific. The fixed mindset and the growth mindset discussion is something that we have already seen a lot of the time in biology as well. Like, are we born a certain way, or are we growing up through different circumstances to become a certain way? This nature versus nurture discussion has reminded me oftentimes of the fixed and growth mindset. And as you said, it sounds very simple. It is not too difficult to grasp actually in its roots, in its principles. But the way that you live it, the way that you then act on it, and also how you deal with different circumstances where the culture is not in a growth mindset. That's then the complicated part, or the part where you have to be very rooted within yourself or intentional about how you approach it. 


Patrick Let's take a step back before we talk about nurture versus nature, for instance, and growth mindset, what it does to us to, the misconceptions. Let's quickly talk about definitions just for a minute. What is the difference between the fixed mindset and the growth mindset? So we all know what we're talking about. 


Monika Basically, the fixed mindset is the conviction or the belief that you are born with a certain set of abilities, a certain level of intelligence, and that's that. So, a lot of people, for example, when they look at intelligence tests, this is what they think: that this intelligence test would then assess their innate talent and intelligence level. Even though the creator of intelligence tests also, one of them, for example, very clearly said that this is to be viewed very cautiously and that this is dependent on, for example, when you assess the intelligence of a child, that this is to be viewed, also with accounting for the circumstances within which the child is, etc. In our need to simplify things maybe, we have assessed this as an example of some fixed trait of yours. And this is something that we can apply to anything, any talent, any potential within us. You can recognize this when someone says I am simply this type of person, or I have always been x, y, z. So it is more of a black and white thinking, can I do it? Can’t I do it? And if you decide that you can't do something, this is it. Practically, you have to accept it, this is the best way to work with it. And it is pretty deterministic. 


Patrick So it's a little bit of a black and white thinking. I'm either good, I'm either bad, I'm born this way, and if I'm born with this talent, then for the rest of my life I can do this. But that's about it. I can not learn something different. So I cannot become an athlete in some kind of sports, or I cannot become an entrepreneur when I'm not born with a talent for numbers, for instance, or something. Well, I think it's actually holding you back when you have that kind of mindset. 


Monika Yes, it can hold you back in a lot of ways, especially since a few decades ago, a lot of the research and a lot of the literature was focused mostly on traits recognizing traits of successful people. And they were described as these characteristics that you either have or don't have, but not as something that you could nurture or build toward. So it was this natural talent thing. And we also know this from talking with other people. Oftentimes when you say that someone is a natural, this is a very positive connotation in our culture. If you say that he's a natural, this means that the quality or the high level quality that they can deliver is something that they didn't have to have to work on a lot, that just came to them naturally. It was effortless. And this idea of effortless, high quality is in some ways very seductive to us or very attractive to us. So this also, of course, then enforces the fixed mindset, trying to fit to this idea of the natural talent if we strive to be good at something. The problem though, is with a fixed mindset - if you think in terms of am I able to do something or not right now? And this determines your potential - it means that you are also keeping yourself clearly defined to what you are able to do now. And if you decide that this is not good enough, you will constantly be in a conflict of trying to validate yourself, of trying to get reassurance that you are, after all, good enough. So this is a lot of tension then, of course, which you produce within yourself simply because you have determined that the way that you are now is the way that you will have to be in the future, because there is no potential for growth. So the only way to be okay with yourself is trying to prove that this current state of yours is somehow still valid. And this then leads to a lot of not that productive coping strategies, let's call it like that, which are looking for other people who are not as good as you are, so you can still feel better, or diminishing the value of what it means to be good at something, or trying to seem better than you think you actually are. And this is something that then, of course, can nurture the imposter syndrome, can nurture a deeply rooted insecurity. But all of these things are possible consequences of a fixed mindset. 


Patrick I feel like it's also nurturing a sort of group of people that you want to have around yourself. If you have that sort of mindset, you have this certain need for validation and approval from other people. So you have those people that you look down to because they feel like, oh, this person is so good. And you relish in this whole approval process from everyone. So it's not really a very, as you said, authentic way of living and also not having this network around yourself, this authentic way of communicating with each other. And I can see it in a lot of people in certain levels of a company maybe. When we talk about managers, for instance, that are very insecure in what they're doing, they don't feel good enough that they're seeking this approval level from their employees, from their co-workers, for instance. It's getting really hard to work with them because you don't have that, and we'll come to that later on, you’re not even allowed to make a mistake, because as soon as you make that mistake, in the fixed mindset - it’s a disaster. 


Monika Of course, because what is a mistake in such a mindset? In a mindset where you are simply as good as you have just shown that you are, it means that you are not capable of doing something. A mistake is just the proof that after all your potential, your capabilities, your skill set, your intelligence, your talent, whatever is not good enough in order to make the right decision, in order to take the right course of action. So what will happen the next time? You will either avoid entering a challenging situation. You will avoid going outside of your comfort zone, because you might again go through the experience of seeing that you are not good enough. And then also, you might not want to have a lot of people who would challenge what you are doing because they might point you towards the blind spots, they might point you towards possible mistakes. They might correct you. If you have a fixed mindset, you don't want to be corrected. If you have a high ego and you want to maintain that. So especially for leaders, especially for companies, a fixed mindset can be really dangerous and detrimental to a company if the leader is avoiding any challenges, mistakes, facing difficult situations because they can't really cope with what they think that this means about them, so they will make more ego based decisions and not take the necessary actions to keep the company thriving and growing and evolving. As of course, external circumstances change, internal circumstances change. All of that is simply not acceptable to them. 


Patrick So basically it's a… it's a complete downward spiral when you think about it, because it’s… you have all those challenges that are thrown towards you. You have those internal and external factors. And whenever there is the slightest mistake, you're tripping up and it's a complete disaster for you. When in fact, when you would have a growth mindset, you would see those challenges in a very different way. And everything is not a problem. It's just a challenge to grow. 


Monika So a growth mindset is the basic belief and conviction that your basic skills, this can be your intelligence, your talents, your specific skill set, your capabilities can be nurtured and developed through the experiences that you go through. This means that if you are not capable at doing something right now, you will simply think of this as not yet. In one of her speeches, Carol Dweck gave this beautiful example of students being rated and students taking an exam, and if they failed the exam, they didn't get failed or that they dropped out, but they got the grade not yet, which simply encouraged their view and their perception of themselves also, that they are on a learning curve. And this is applicable to anything that you do, anything that you wish to do. For example, if you look at how you learn things, also starting from a very young age. Let me give you an example, I have learned the piano. When I started, of course I sucked because I didn't know anything about it. But if I had let this determine my perception of my potential, this would have stopped me from actually going to the lessons. This would have stopped me from sitting down and practicing. Because why would I sit down In order to just once more showcase to myself that I'm not able to do something? Instead, as children, we all had this natural growth mindset where we simply tried things. We continued to stretch beyond what we are currently capable to do, and we tried. We saw people walking, we saw people running, and then as small children, we attempted to do that as well. And we fell and failure was not a sign of incapability. It was a sign of simply needing to practice more and needing to grow more into it. And this kind of growth mindset, as we oftentimes see in children, you might even say that this is the natural way for us to learn. 


Patrick I would actually call it a little bit like a child's approach to life, because it's, as you said, you fall down, you get up and you just try again. That's basically what you just described as the growth mindset. 


Monika Yes. And that's a mindset which is very freeing. It's very flexible. It's open. It's of course realistic because you can't just praise yourself for being able to do something that you are not capable of doing. The child, if it falls down and can't walk, it knows that it needs to try to stand up again. It can't be completely illusionistic and just tell itself that everything is okay. This is not about cushioning and sugarcoating your progress. It's about having this long term learning curve awareness. You can see this with leaders and companies that hire, for example, not only based on what the person has already proven that they are capable of doing or what they are now capable of doing, but that they also hire for the mindset, the wish to grow, and the potential that the person is then willing to act on and nurture and cultivate, evolve. 


Patrick It's actually kind of a problem when you think about it. A lot of companies do exactly what you just said. They're hiring out a university, and if you take a look at the grades, yes, you've been perfect at university. You've done every test. Aced it. Now you're supposed to know everything when you go out into the real world, into a company. Yeah, and it's a bit of a weird conception that just because you aced all your tests, a university that now you've been prepared for everything that the real world is throwing at you? And yes, it's different if you're really bad at university, for instance. Yes. That also kind of shows that you might not really be willing to learn. That's completely different. But let's just say you are in the mid-level. You've not been the best, you've not been the worst, but you're showing that when you show up to a workplace you are willing to learn. You really want to get into it. I honestly believe this is worth more than the grades that you have at university level. 


Monika Absolutely. I also believe that innate talent, so somebody who is really, really good at something without having had to practice or try certain things beforehand, but they have this natural talent for something… I still think that the person who has slightly less talent, but is way more growth minded, they have way more hunger also to achieve this, and they are also learning the strategies of learning and growing. So I would always choose the second person because they will be able to grow beyond any level that they can reach, because they have simply learned the mindset and the tools in order to achieve that in practical ways. It's not just an open mindedness to see yourself in an open light. No, it's something that you can actually act on and implement. 


Patrick When you go into a workplace. It's not just doing the work. There's so much more coming into play there. Social skills, dealing with all kinds of people, learning stuff that may or may not have been part of your university training or otherwise training. It's not just the things that you know from university or from your training. There's other stuff that you have not been prepared for, and that mindset prepares you for learning these things. But you've already mentioned something that's quite interesting and we have to talk about it. Growth mindset does not equal open mindedness, because when I got into the book in the first place and we talked about it before, it's a bit like you feel it's so simple. Growth mindset. Yes, be open, be willing and that's it. But it's not. 


Monika Well, this is something that Carol Dweck writes in her book, was an astonishing realization for her when she was pointed towards people having a false growth mindset and she thought, why would they have a false growth mindset? It's so simple. The principles are pretty easy to understand. What does it mean to have a false growth mindset? And then she realized that there are a few core misconceptions that people have about growth mindset, and the first one being that they simply equate a positive attitude towards ourselves with a growth mindset, and that they mix up acknowledging and praising oneself for the positive qualities that you have. And this can be open mindedness. This can be flexibility, this can be curiosity. All of these kinds of traits or qualities that you might have are in themselves very valuable and beautiful, and they can be part of a growth mindset, or they can encourage or they can help you encourage and nurture your growth mindset. But they are not the growth mindset that Carol Dweck describes in itself. The growth mindset means that you are willing to stretch yourself, and that you view yourself as someone on a learning curve, willing to go through the challenges and experiences that will help you develop new skills and new capabilities. 


Patrick Where would you draw the line between growth mindset and curiosity then, for instance? Because I mean, if I think about curiosity, I feel like I want to learn new things and I'm open to it. But where is that line where you say, okay, this is just curiosity, and that is then a growth mindset? 


Monika Oh, that's a really good example because it's can be quite obvious in some terms, but a lot of people confuse curiosity with a growth mindset. So, curiosity can be a trigger for you to want to explore something new. But if you have a fixed mindset, the moment that you come up against the challenge, the moment that you come up against any obstacle or make a mistake, your curiosity will probably suffer from that because you will have the perception of yourself as being curious but not being good at this, so you won't be able to do that in the future as well. While having curiosity and a growth mindset would mean that you would be triggered to explore something. You would be curious and want to grow into something deeper. And then you would also have the realization, wait a second, this is way more difficult than I thought. This is going to be challenging. How exciting! Now I can follow my curiosity even more and I can explore this. And I will grow as I see these challenges for what they are, a learning opportunity. And this way then you combine curiosity and growth mindset. But if you stop at curiosity, you don't really know how to handle situations like that. You don't know how to handle criticism. For example, if you are curious about something but get criticized, then you will probably for the sake of protecting your ego, protecting the persona that you have to be, you will probably stop exploring this topic that you were curious about. These are just examples, but you see that there is a way different consequence in how you deal with certain things, depending on whether you have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. 


Patrick It's also a bit of a longer journey for me. The curiosity, what you just said is basically okay, I'm triggered by something. I want to know that. The first hurdle that I have to cross is like, okay, maybe not what I really wanted to know or really want to get into it. And the growth mindset is, how do I get over that? How do I jump over that and still get along with it? So visually speaking, it's a bit of like the length of the journey that you're willing to go on this. 


Monika You have to always think that the growth mindset is about the process. It's not so much about where you start. Of course, it is about staying realistic. Carol Dweck also points towards praising not only effort but also impact. We are going to get to that in a second. So you will look at outcomes. You will want to improve by being realistic and taking a real assessment of where you stand, where you want to go, how well you have progressed. But curiosity will be something that can carry you also through that by giving you inspiration, by highlighting different things that are new to you. But growth mindset will be a very practical approach to how you design the process of growth and learning. 


Patrick So let's get into that praising effort and process, what you just mentioned. 


Monika Yes. Well, this is something that also is part of the growth mindset. So instead of praising innate intelligence, telling children, for example, how intelligent they are, how smart they are, which would actually then enforce the mindset of being a certain way. If you tell a child, for example, that they are so smart, and that this is why they were able to complete a challenge or complete an exercise, then they will internalize this belief. I am this intelligent and this is why I manage this. So the conclusion would be the next time that I come up against a challenge which I cannot succeed in, this means that I'm not intelligent enough, right?


Patrick It could also mean it's a slight criticism of our educational system, which is a whole other topic. So we're not going too deep into this. But if you think about it, it takes us back to the not yet principle that she had with her students. It is basically saying, okay, you're not good enough if you have… if you fail a test or saying you're not there yet. So we're not going into this right now. But it's kind of interesting when you think about that process that as you said, if you tell kids you're not good enough for this, you failed this now or you only managed it because you're so talented, it's the spectrum of you aced to test, or you fail the test. 


Monika And the outcome determines who you are practically. 


Patrick Yeah. And you basically raise those kids to think in absolutes, in just good or bad. 


Monika Again, in the black and white thinking. Well, now translating this to being in a position of being an entrepreneur, a leader, a CEO, if you praise yourself, but also your team for the effort that they put into something, for the creativity that they applied, they will be more encouraged to show up in the same way, or give the same amount of effort and curiosity and determination to the next project, no matter what the outcome of the one project is. So it's about praising the effort and the process. But also, she reminds us, that it's not about praising effort that is not there. This is not about sugarcoating things or making people feel only good about themselves. Of course, you should tell other people that they did a good job, but only if they did a good job. It's not about telling someone, oh no, you were so, so good in how you showed up, and then you knew that they gave 10% of what they actually said they would do. This is not keeping them accountable, and this is not encouraging them to show up and really learn and grow. 


Patrick Brings us back a little bit to our last episode, right? 


Monika It definitely is. And it's also about how we talk to ourselves when we come into roles that feel unnatural or out of our comfort zone, or even inauthentic to ourselves. It's about showing up in the way that we know that we are giving it our best, and then deciding whether this was a good outcome and whether this was the impact that we wanted. Instead of just trying a little bit or trying to show up in a certain way, so we present a picture to the outside world, but actually knowing that we didn't really tackle it or that we didn't really confront the role that we have to fulfill in this moment. 


Patrick One other important thing that we have to talk about is the growth mindset, this willingness to grow and change and adapt to all these things that life throws at us. We already talked about it in our last episode, delegating and not necessarily doing everything by yourself. Having this growth mindset doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be the one in charge of everything. 


Monika The growth mindset is simply the attitude and the belief and the conviction with which you then tackle these things, and it also determines how you approach things. But it doesn't mean that you need to grow in every field, in every role, in every department. As an entrepreneur, as a leader, you will be very much responsible for staying focused on where your time, your effort is best invested. So the growth mindset is not an excuse to keep on taking more responsibility and more burden, and keep on trying to stay in control of everything and excusing that with being growth minded. That's not about it. Delegating can also be part of your growth mindset. Also, I know that for some people, delegating is the real challenge in certain situations, so you will need a growth mindset for that too. 


Patrick It definitely is because when you think about growing into a different role, which brings us a bit back to our last episode when we take on new challenges, and then you grow into a role where you don't have the time to do everything by yourself. You have to delegate at one point. I think that's one of the most important growth steps that you can take to realize that, of course, I could do it myself and I would be willing to do it myself, but I just don't have the time anymore. And I have to be willing to trust other people. 


Monika I see that this is something that a lot of multi passionate people struggle with. They are so passionate and they can get so excited about all kinds of things. And with this growth mindset, of course, then also they have the conviction that they will be able to do it. So if they lack the focus of what's most important for them right now, what are the game changers where they are most needed? If they don't have this part, they can scatter all their efforts and the energy and their time. And then at some point there will come this point of realization. Wait a second, I can do everything. I would love to do everything, but I won't reach my goal if I am the one doing everything. 


Patrick But let's also talk about that we're not either or because we've talked about thinking black and white when you have a fixed mindset. But even if you have a growth mindset, it's not as simple as I'm always growing in every area where I'm willing to grow in every area. Maybe I have some traits of the fixed mindset in certain areas of my life, right? 


Monika Well, if you would now claim that you are either a completely fixed mindset person or a completely growth minded person, then you would probably fall back into the fixed mindset where you declare and determine that you are either or, a certain way, just like you said right now. And as Carol Dweck also points out, we all have both mindsets depending on certain situations, certain circumstances, certain stages of our journey as well. Sometimes it might be easier for us to stay growth minded, while in other moments when we are overwhelmed, when we are under stress, when we are in a perceived threatening environment, we can fall into a fixed mindset. So it's not that easy to say, I'm just like this. This would be a generalization that is way too absolute and way too unrealistic. Instead, and this is also what she points out, it’s about moving towards a growth mindset in a consistent and continuous journey. So what does this mean? Carol Dweck says, You don't get a growth mindset by proclamation. You need to nurture it by taking the journey. And the journey is by embracing your fixed mindset where you realize that it shows up, recognizing your triggers and then finding a way to talk to these triggers or to talk to this fixed mindset persona, as she calls it - and she even recommends to give this persona a name - as someone who accompanies you on this journey of growth. And you just need to take this persona with you as as you still take confident and intentional steps towards nurturing your growth mindset and towards your goal of course. And this reminds me very much of what we talked about when we talked about self-sabotaging behaviors, how we deal with self-sabotaging parts of ourselves, and how we actually need to embrace them and take them on this journey of growth with us instead of trying to fight this realization, Oh, we have a certain fixed mindset in a certain department or in a certain area of our lives and business. 


Patrick So the fixed mindset that we might have is not the big villain within us. It's sort of something that we have to accept to live with and something that we have to challenge, maybe even on a daily basis, when we look at different areas of our lives and then try to find a way to incorporate it. I will have those traits of the fixed mindset in certain areas. And I might think, okay, is that good for me or is that not good for me? But then if I push myself out of the comfort zone a little bit, a little bit, but if I take that step every now and then I will adopt this growth mindset, even though I have the fixed mindset within me at one point. 


Monika So in the light of that, this is a beautiful exercise that people can also take and implement right away when they want to start exploring this topic. And this is: to understand or grow an awareness of where in their lives we are in the business, of what they are doing, they might be holding on to a fixed mindset and then trying to embrace this, get curious about it and try to move into a growth mindset with this fixed mindset. This is something that we can all do starting today. 


Patrick It's actually quite good homework because this has been our last book before the summer break. We're going on a little bit of a break right now, and will be back in the fall with some very, very interesting topics also revolving around authenticity in business, right? 


Monika I can't wait for them. Especially our first episode is already so juicy and so exciting. I’m… I can't wait to even record it already. 


Patrick We'll get into that. And for now, we're saying thank you for sticking around and we'll see you in the fall. 


Monika Have a beautiful and recharging summer and we will see you then again. 


Patrick If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your fellow entrepreneurs so they can listen too. Grab the link in our show notes and send it to them. 


Monika If you're looking to join our tribe of movers and shakers to get a sense of belonging and fresh insights, join our Pioneers Club community. The link to our community is waiting for you in our show notes as well. 


Patrick And don't forget to connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram and let us know, what was a helpful thought or insight that you gained from this episode?


Monika Have any questions or ideas for us? Head over to our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and tell us. We read every submission and would love to answer your question in a later episode too. So thanks for joining us. 


Patrick See you in the next one.