The Pioneers Club
The community podcast for driven entrepreneurs and leaders.
Here you can connect with like-minded people, create a sense of belonging, and gain practical insights you need to gain more mental & emotional agency and resilience for your daily life.
We, your host Monika (certified mental & systemic coach) and co-host Patrick (entrepreneur & broadcast production manager), will answer your most burning questions, talk with exclusive guests, and share their own stories & experiences on how to deal with & thrive through the trials & tribulations of entrepreneurship.
The Pioneers Club
Overcoming Self-Sabotage: Discussing Brianna Wiest's "The Mountain Is You"
“There is nothing holding you back in life more than yourself.” (Brianna Wiest)
Welcome to a new episode of the Pioneers Club podcast! In this episode, we dive deep into the topic of self-sabotage. Inspired by Brianna Wiest's book, "The Mountain is You," we uncover what self-sabotage really is and how it holds us back.
We'll talk about what it really is (vs. the common misconception that it is the 'enemy'), how to recognize that you are engaged in self-sabotage, and how to break free from it in 5 simple steps.
You'll learn:
2:42 - What is self-sabotage and what does it mean to sabotage yourself?
6:08 - A powerful coaching method to get to the root of your self-sabotage
8:02 - Common roots & sources of self-sabotage
14:21 - How can you recognize that you're sabotaging yourself?
19:25 - The power of your support network in recognizing & dealing with self-sabotage
21:56 - Putting it into practice: 5 steps to let go of your self-sabotaging behavior and thrive
Tune in and let's thrive together!
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Your Host:
Monika Lerch
https://www.monikalerch.com/
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Your Co-Host:
Patrick Öffl
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Linkedin: /in/patrickoeffl/
Instagram: @patrickoeffl
Monika This is the Pioneers Club podcast.
Patrick The community podcast for driven entrepreneurs and leaders.
Monika Here you can connect with like minded people, create a sense of belonging and gain more agency in your daily life. Hi, my name is Monika and I'm your host. I help impact driven freelancers, entrepreneurs and leaders live their full potential and go from feeling overwhelmed, stuck and confused to being confident, clear-headed and focussed as they go after their goals. As a mindset and systemic coach, I focus primarily on topics such as confidence, high performance, self coaching and self leadership and use my mindfulness based and systemic approach to help my clients thrive with more ease.
Patrick And I'm your co-host, Patrick, an entrepreneur just like you. I'm an international media producer working on live sports, premium documentaries and digital content. I help people bring their stories to life and work with a global network of partners to create engaging content. I live through the topics of our podcast, just like you, and I will try to ask the questions you might have.
Monika “There is nothing holding you back in life more than yourself.”
Patrick Talk about tough love. That's how you want to start into a new podcast episode.
Monika Well, this is exactly how we should start into this topic, because today we are talking about self-sabotage. And this quote is actually from Brianna Wiest, who wrote a book which was very much discussed and shared on social media as well. The book is called The Mountain Is You. And this book focuses exclusively on what it means to be engaged in a self-sabotage cycle, how to recognize it, and how to break through it. And as we have talked about limiting self perceptions, limiting self beliefs, last time, we thought that this is the perfect book to continue this topic with, right?
Patrick It's perfect. I actually really loved the book and what she's trying to say, and how you have to work with yourself in order to get a clearer picture of what's holding you back, how you can deal with… It's these simple and small things, once you know them, but before that, it seems like… she’s calling it that mountain. It seems like I can never go through this. I can not do this. It's so complicated. I can't find out what it is, when it actually could be so much simpler.
Monika And to be honest, we all engage in self-sabotaging behaviors.
Patrick But I think first of all, we have to talk about what this actually is. I mean, we talk about self-sabotage, and some of the people out there might know what it is, but what is it that we're actually talking about when you're sabotaging yourself? And how do I see that?
Monika We all know what it feels like to do things that we actually know are not going to promote us on our path towards the goal that we have. We all know what it feels to hold ourselves back. And self-sabotaging behavior is oftentimes vilified. It's oftentimes presented at the as the enemy, right? This resistance that you feel to doing the thing that you said you wanted to do or the procrastination that you bring into something even though you could take action. All of these things are little examples of how we engage in self-sabotaging behavior, and we are used to thinking about it as this enemy, when in fact, self-sabotage is simply the presence of a subconscious need and a subconscious belief between what you want or what you say that you want, and a need that is threatened by this or not fulfilled in the process of achieving this. That's it. So basically, we are vilifying the experience that we have a need that we are not quite aware of.
Patrick It sounds so simple.
Monika It actually is. It is pretty simple. And once you come to terms with this and once you stop judging yourself, but there is a lot of cleansing that you have to do before you can truly accept this. But once you stop judging yourself, once you stop putting yourself under pressure, once you stop putting yourself also in comparison to others and, looking at yourself of how other people will judge you, etc. Once you free yourself from this and actually look at the self-sabotaging behavior for what it is, it becomes very simple.
Patrick I think it's just one of those things that is like all the other things that we've been talking about so far. You have to come to terms with it. I mean, we've been talking about it. You have the good sides of yourself. You have the bad sides of yourself. The good things, you accept them easily. It's like, oh, yeah, I have these strengths and I'm good at that. And then you have your dark side. And I think it's not that easy to put it in terms of okay, self-sabotaging is that only bad thing that I have. But it's just what I'm trying to say. You have to accept it to make it your own. It goes back to when we discussed the negotiation, where you have to accept your weaknesses. Even so, you can use them in a negotiation. It goes back to the habits where you can turn your behavior around by even acknowledging the bad habits and changing them bit by bit. It comes into play in in this one too. The most important thing that I took from it is basically acknowledging that it's there and that you have to look at it, and once you're there, that's the first step towards making it better and turning it around.
Monika This is always the first step, and we are going to talk about it when we get to the putting it into practice section of this episode. The first step clearly, is get out of denial and accept full responsibility to look at it for what it is. And this also means to stop judging it for… or generalizing it as this negative thing. And one powerful coaching method that I always use with my clients whenever they describe a behavior, a thought, a feeling that they don't like, that they would like to get rid of, but somehow they can't seem to be able to get rid of it. You know, there are certain things where you say, I don't like the way that I behaved here. You change it, you let it go and it's gone perfectly. But if there's something that is recurring again and again and again, and you realize that actually you say you want to get rid of it, but you are not able to get rid of it, then it gets important to ask yourself, what is the benefit of this negative thing? What am I actually gaining by engaging in this behavior? And oftentimes what you will hear is safety. The feeling that I'm still liked by other people. For example, if we take a self-sabotaging behavior where you know that you should say No to certain things, we all have been there.
Patrick Setting boundaries, it’s the perfect example.
Monika So we have all been there at this point where we know we should set boundaries and we know we should say no. And still, in the situation itself, you can't seem to get the No out of yourself. And asking yourself then, how is it good that I'm not saying no? will open up your thoughts and will open up yourself to the awareness of what you are actually gaining by not saying no. And oftentimes it's the experience of still being liked, of people not being disappointed in you. And this goes back to the need to be liked, or it goes back to the need for loyalty or whatever it is. And this way you then recognize actually, wait a second, there is a meaningful need which is fulfilled by a seemingly negative behavior. And this is so powerful then.
Patrick But can we take a step back? I mean, we're already deep into how do you recognize it and how do you deal with it? But when we take a step back into the roots of it, where is it even coming from rather than already going to okay, this is where I recognize it. Because I feel like the recognizing part is a whole other department of even like looking at yourself. It's like you have to look where it really hurts. That's a whole other thing. But back to the beginning, the roots of it. Where is it coming from? I think we quickly have to talk about it.
Monika Yes and no. Oftentimes people get a little bit hung up on their roots, but of course it's important to understand where it comes from. Basically a lot of self-sabotaging behaviors come from certain fears. Brianna Wiest talks a lot about fears in her book, about irrational and irrational fears, about the difference between fear and intuition, how to listen to it. We can't go into all of that. But it can also come from what she called unconscious negative associations. So something where there is a conflict between what you are trying to achieve and who you think you have to be or become or what you have… you think you have to do in order to get there. A perfect example of this is oftentimes the wish or the goal to be successful and earn money, but having a negative image of the people who possess money. So you would have to become something which for you is negative in order to achieve your primary goal. And of course, then you will produce a certain tension, what we call inner conflict within yourself if you are trying to force yourself into becoming a person that you really hate or that you don't want to be.
Patrick Obviously no one wants to become what they hate. It's the worst thing.
Monika However, if you are not aware of this, your system, your organism, your brain, the only way that they will be able to function with this conflict and to make it still work, is to sabotage your process and your progress towards your goal. Because if you are just blindly - this is where toxic positivity comes in as well - if you are just naively focusing on the goal and you have to have this goal and you have to fulfill it feeling only good about yourself and only good about your goal, you will ignore these kinds of beliefs, associations which you might have through no fault of your own. You know, this could be something that your family maybe proclaimed and you just need to let go of this belief. But still, you need to let go first in order to then progress towards a goal.
Patrick It's also what she talks about a little bit like this appearing happy versus actually being happy, where it's so important to you, how you’re perceived to others. Oh yes, I'm happy all the time. Everything's great. It's not the actual truth, and you have this need of constant validation then that you're going out and you want to prove to everyone you are happy. But are you truly happy?
Monika Yes, never getting beyond the image of things, actually, and towards the rooted happiness. Yeah, that's a very good point.
Patrick I always say this, I think in every. I try to make it a point somehow. There is social media coming in and making it just a negative downward spiral where you appear happy versus actually being happy. But it's quite interesting that you're in this spiral already, even without the modern technology. And then this technology just enforces it. It's getting even worse then.
Monika That's very true. I can actually see a lot of connections here, or parallels between, how intensely people are engaged on social media and trying to portray a certain image of themselves. I can see this a lot in high performing circles. I can see this with people who are promoting themselves with a positive image on social media, and who are also in very high achieving circles then through connections. They will maybe fall more easily into the trap of vilifying this kind of self-sabotaging behavior as an unwelcome part of themselves because it just doesn't fit the overall image and the overall picture. So if they are also then in a hustling mindset, if they are trying to do things quickly and fast and everything has to be taken care of yesterday practically, then of course you will try to avoid this process of accepting, acknowledging, looking at it, going a little bit deeper and then finding the real source and the real solution. But you will find some coping mechanisms which will just actually intensify the self-sabotaging behavior.
Patrick The quick fix then.
Monika Yeah, the quick fix, which doesn't really solve the problem. And then oftentimes clients come to me with a problem which has existed for 2 to 3 years already, and then they want to solve it because they realize at some point they can't grow beyond a certain stage while keeping this up, or they are just not getting rid of it and it takes up a lot of energy. Because let's be honest, these inner kinds of conflicts, these unfulfilled needs, they take up energy. It's not like you can ignore it and it will just vanish. So that's one of the main reasons that people come to me. Either they are stuck or they are losing energy on this. The third reason why you might be engaging in self-sabotaging behaviors is also something that I really like to talk about, and you have heard me talk about this oftentimes as well already, and this is: just because it doesn't feel right, because it's new, doesn't mean that it is not right. We confuse feeling for the rightness of action. And this is also then where people start engaging in self-sabotaging behaviors, because anything that is not familiar can feel uncomfortable at first. And we have oftentimes a faulty connection between thinking that we have to feel comfortable, confident and good about any change that we are introducing in order for it to be right, which is not true. Any change that you introduce will be unfamiliar and therefore uncomfortable at the beginning. This is just a fact.
Patrick We'll get to the change part in a minute, because we obviously have to talk about once we know all of what's going on, that we have to do something about it. But let's quickly jump to the recognizing part. That is one step before actually doing something about it, because at one point in time we actually have to realize that there is something going on that we are self-sabotaging. We actually see now, we are doing something that's not the greatest thing for us, but we have to look deeper. We have to look where it hurts, as we were saying, and we have to admit that something is wrong, which is basically like uncovering a truth. And you already said before this could then reveal a need. That's the underlying cause, basically. But how do I get to that part where… where I'm actually recognizing it? Because let's be honest, we don't want to look where it hurts.
Monika Well, yes. And oftentimes, and this is what Brianna West also expresses in her book, oftentimes we are only willing to look at what hurts when the pain of remaining in this pattern, the cost of it, is bigger than the pain of changing.
Patrick So you're basically saying when the suffering is too much, so.
Monika So when the suffering and the pain gets that big, and we know already from psychology as well, that there are two motivators for people. They can have a pull motivation. So being pulled towards something, this means to be inspired and therefore change something or go into action because you just feel this positive moment of inspiration, motivation and wanting to achieve that. Or because something is painful, negative and just hurts us. And we know that pain is simply the stronger motivator. Which you can actually use if you know that something is not useful, if you know that you are engaging in something that is actually not helpful, you could really sit down and write down the cost of engaging in this behavior, or continuing in this train of thought. Let's take an example. You could sit down and if you are, for example… you know that you should speak up more. You know that you should step up your game, show up more and promote yourself and your business more, but you somehow hold back. You still don't feel ready to do it. You could increase your awareness for the pain of this by sitting down and actually asking yourself, what is the cost of not showing up and really getting specific about it and getting painfully clear on what you are losing out on.
Patrick So it's a sort of a micro analysis. I'm taking a look at myself, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but we always say this. It's like, take a step back, look at yourself, analyze yourself. You always say it's the first part and the first step in in a coaching process, basically.
Monika Observe yourself.
Patrick Yeah, exactly, observe yourself. And literally sitting down writing everything down. And then okay, I can see that this behavior is doing that and it costs me this. How do I break out then?
Monika As you just said, the first step is to be aware and to be willing to sit down and recognize what it is. And this you can, even if you're not even completely sure how you are holding yourself back, you could sit down and just observe yourself. Let's take the span of a week, for example. You could start observing yourself and taking notes on everything that you're doing, on the thoughts that you are having, and then actually ask yourself, how is this related to my goal? Is this helpful in relation to my goal or not? And again, let's be clear every behavior, every thought that you have is reasonable. It makes sense. It has a purpose, but it may not be helpful in relation to a specific goal. And then very quickly, if you look at this, you will realize wait a second, I'm doing something here, which I might say even is in order to get closer to my goal. But actually I know if I'm honest with myself, it's holding me back. I know that I don't need the fifth, sixth, or seventh time of reading through yet another book in order to be even more of an expert in something. All of these kinds of things that we are holding ourselves back. You can, if you are honest with yourself, recognize the behaviors that are somehow just not moving you forward.
Patrick I like what you said when we talked before that there is a difference between habits that move you forward and habits that hold you back.
Monika That's a differentiation that I also highlighted and even took notes on that Brianna Wiest did in her book where she talked about the habits that move your life forward, she called them skills, and the habits that hold you back are self-sabotaging behaviors. And once you start observing yourself and once you start taking really a little bit of a more distanced look at your life, you will be able to analyze and recognize that. Of course, there are certain times where you really need someone to help you look at this from outside. There are certain situations where you are so deeply already engaged in a certain pattern, where you are so deeply involved in something that someone from outside like a coach, a witness, maybe a friend who has gone through it as well, will be able to give you the solution, wave quicker and be able to pinpoint the self-sabotaging behavior way quicker.
Patrick I mean, that's why we have a network basically. It helps you in really hard situations. I mean, the coach obviously can help very professionally, but there could be like on the lower end of this, be friends, family, a network, mentor, whatever to help you on that journey.
Monika And that's why I say the best friends are not the ones who are enabling you. And just like questioning you, sugarcoating what you are doing and encouraging, no, you are giving your best. No, you are enough, doing enough. Whatever it is. Of course you want your friends to be supportive and respectful, but the respectful… the truly respectful friend will be the one who will call you out on certain things and who will, with a very respectful tone of voice, in a very respectful way, point out that you are doing something that seems in conflict with what you say that you want.
Patrick It's very nice of you to say that, keeping a mindful tone of your voice, because I would actually say I would actually want my friends to really call me out, to call BS on what I'm doing and tell me this is not great. Bbecause this is the only way how I would actually know that, okay, I maybe have to think about it again and I have to reconsider that behavior maybe though. So I actually think that that's really good that if you have a network, if you have a group of friends like this, that they will. Call you out no matter what.
Monika The way that they will call you out is hopefully also authentic to the relationship that the two of you have. So, for example, with you, I know that I can just tell you, hey, this is BS, no sugarcoating. With… in in a case with someone who I know is a little bit more fragile in a certain situation, not completely, as a person, fragile, but actually just in a more vulnerable state right now because they have taken a few hits already, because they are overly critical with themselves already. Whatever it is, you might have to take a little bit of a softer approach simply for the person to be able to to acknowledge what you are saying.
Patrick So let's say I don't have that support network. Let's say I don't have that honest friend that keeps checks and balances in place and tells me where I'm wrong. What can I do then?
Monika Well, with you, with yourself as well you can, just like we said before, observe yourself and it way. It's way easier if you take notes. So really sit down and take notes. Write it out. Because as long as you don't write it out, it doesn't feel that real. Once you have to verbalize it, it becomes more graspable. So this would be like one of the best ways. Sit down, if you are with yourself, and write down all the behaviors, maybe first that you observe. Take a little notebook and write down all the behaviors, thoughts, feelings, whatever you are focusing on in relation to a goal. Write it down and then check. Is this helpful or not? And very quickly, if you are honest with yourself, you will actually feel whether something is really moving the needle forward. And then you have taken action to get out of denial, as Brianna Wiest calls it, and take full accountability and full responsibility. And this is going to be painful. We're going to be honest here, but it's so necessary. In step 2, you need to prepare for radical change. This is a crucial step that a lot of people miss because they really want to go into action right away. But if you are not aware that you will lose certain things… And this is, as Brianna Wiest puts it, the loss of your old life, the loss of your comfort zone which comes with change, the loss of relationships maybe even, the loss of friends, the loss of the sense of being liked, whatever it is. But whatever you are going to do is going to come at a cost. And if you're not aware of the cost at the beginning, you might self-sabotage again your change. Step three figure out why your self-sabotaging impulses existed in the first place. So this is what we talked about with recognizing and identifying the underlying need. Ask yourself, why is it good that I am engaging in this way? How am I benefiting from engaging in this way? How am I showing up, what am I doing, after thinking a certain thought or feeling a certain way and how is this actually good for me? And if you are truly honest with yourself, this is not easy to do with without a coach, without a certain friend, or without a mentor, but you can do it. If you're really honest with yourself, you will find the underlying need that you are trying to fulfill. Something that you don't have yet considered how to fulfill in a different way. So your whole system, your subconscious mind was only able to fulfill this need with this self-sabotaging behavior. And then it becomes about finding ways to actually fulfill this need in a new way. You can also make peace with this need. You can say, This was a need that I had once, now that I'm aware of it, I can acknowledge it and I can let go of it. But if it is a core need, if it is something that is truly important to you, you will simply have to find a different way of fulfilling it that is compatible with your goal. And if you can't find that, then you have to be very honest with yourself. Whether this goal is actually something that is good and sustainable for you, or whether you can, after all, let go of this need. And then step five start taking action. Start building the habits, the routines - and this kind of change is not going to be comfortable again. Start taking action by setting up a plan of how you are going to approach certain situations differently, how you are going to talk differently, how you are going to think differently. And this can mean writing affirmations. This can mean writing down a script of how you are going to answer certain questions. This can mean building the routines and the habits - and we already talked in a prior episode about how to build habits.
Patrick It takes us back a little bit to the first book that we discussed, Atomic Habits by James Clear, basically because it gives you a building block of how to build these habits, of how to break out of those old ones and take the action that you need here.
Monika But the basic, the foundational work that you have to do is to get aware of it, to take accountability and responsibility and to identify the underlying need, instead of just trying to push through and just trying to will yourself into a new thing.
Patrick So final thing. What's your take away from the book? What would you say is the most important thing that you will remember about this book? And what is, if someone asks you about this book, what is the one thing you would tell them?
Monika Well, there is a lot of things that we were not even able to address because Brianna Wiest put so much into the book. But the one thing that I would actually say to people is, get curious about yourself and about your self-sabotaging behaviors, because they are oftentimes the thing that will propel you into the next level, into taking more empowered action if you approach them in the right way. Take this book as an opportunity to really go deeper into this topic and lean into this topic of how to empower yourself and how to find this new, more positive, more empowered approach to dissolving and breaking free from self-sabotaging behaviors. And if you're still confused afterwards, of course you can always book a session with me.
Patrick If you enjoyed this episode. Share it with your fellow entrepreneurs so they can listen too. Grab the link in our show notes and send it to them.
Monika If you're looking to join our tribe of movers and shakers to get a sense of belonging and fresh insights, join our Pioneers Club community. The link to our community is waiting for you in our show notes as well.
Patrick And don't forget to connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram and let us know, what was a helpful thought or insight that you gained from this episode?
Monika Have any questions or ideas for us? Head over to our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and tell us. We read every submission and would love to answer your question in a later episode too. So thanks for joining us.
Patrick See you in the next one.