The Pioneers Club

Who do you think you are? Rethinking Self-Perception for Lasting Growth

• Monika Lerch & Patrick Öffl • Season 2 • Episode 7

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In this episode of The Pioneers Club, we dive deep into the self-perception paradox, exploring the intricate balance between authenticity, growth and success. 

Have you ever wondered who you truly are versus who you believe you are and who you believe you need to be to achieve your goals?  Then you'll enjoy our conversation!

Join us as we explore the psychological insights behind self-perception and how to strategically choose and regularly reassess your self-image to avoid the pitfalls of inauthenticity and imposed boundaries. 

You'll learn:

1:16 - Today's topic: questioning and exploring your self-perception & self-description

4:52 - Why it's important to question and expand your self-perception continuously

14:19 - When a fixed self-image can be useful & when to question it

17:59 - How to become aware of & challenge your self-perception

20:35 - How to deal with other people's feedback to your change

23:53 - One of the most common mistakes in choosing a new self-image and how to avoid it


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Your Host:
Monika Lerch
https://www.monikalerch.com/
Linkedin: /in/monikalerch/
Instagram: @themonikalerch

Your Co-Host:
Patrick Öffl
https://www.amikifilms.com/
Linkedin: /in/patrickoeffl/
Instagram: @patrickoeffl

Monika This is the Pioneers Club podcast. 


Patrick The community podcast for driven entrepreneurs and leaders. 


Monika Here you can connect with like minded people, create a sense of belonging and gain more agency in your daily life. Hi, my name is Monika and I'm your host. I help impact-driven freelancers, entrepreneurs and leaders live their full potential and go from feeling overwhelmed, stuck and confused to being confident, clear-headed and focused as they go after their goals. As a mindset and systemic coach, I focus primarily on topics such as confidence, high performance, self coaching and self leadership and use my mindfulness based and systemic approach to help my clients thrive with more ease. 


Patrick And I'm your co-host, Patrick, an entrepreneur just like you. I'm an international media producer working on live sports, premium documentaries and digital content. I help people bring their stories to life and work with a global network of partners to create engaging content. I live through the topics of our podcast, just like you, and I will try to ask the questions you might have. 


Monika So welcome back to this new episode of the Pioneers Club Podcast. Today we are excited to bring this podcast episode to you, because we are going to talk about a topic that, for us at least, has become a very interesting topic of discussion. Especially because I was on a few festivals, conferences last week, the week before that, so, festival season is…


Patrick It's in full swing. It's in full swing… Festival season, you could basically go to one every week now. 


Monika What do you mean you could? Basically I did for the last 3 to 4 weeks, I was on at least one festival per week and it was exciting and it was really, really inspiring. But it also brought this topic more to my attention, again, because it showed how people actually think about themselves and talk about themselves and how they present their own self-perception. And this is going to be our topic of discussion today as well, right? 


Patrick Self-perception is quite interesting because we talked about it on a number of occasions already, but it's something that's influenced so much by external factors, about how you talk to other people about yourself. It's basically what you said, how you present yourself. In the best case, it's in a state of flux where it changes, but you have to get to a point where you have a self perception of yourself that's sort of fixed. And I remember that it was quite the journey for me, actually, when I was thinking about that for the first time, because when you start in the industry, for instance, you… you start small, you start as an assistant and you have to do smaller jobs. That's just how you learn, how you get into it. That's just the way it is. And that's totally fine, a lot of people should do that, but the more you grow up, the more you grow into your job, the more responsibility you get in your jobs, it’s hard to actually grow this self-perception on an organic level. When, when I did that, when I first had my real job as a project manager, I wasn't sure if I could do it. There was so much going on, and you feel you're not good enough for it. And then you look around, you see all these people. And what I did at least, is you always compare yourself with everything that you've done before, the experience that you have, and then you try to compare yourself with someone who has almost the same experience as you. You tend to do it with people who are, and I don't want it to sound rude, but who may not have the success that you already had. 


Monika So who are not as advanced. 


Patrick Not as advanced, exactly. Because it feels a bit more secure, a bit more safe when you do this. And then the other side of the coin is you tend to underestimate yourself when you do that over a while. It feels like, okay, I'm comparing myself to this person who doesn't have that success. He didn't do this. She did that. He did that. So in that case, you arrive at a self-image that is a little bit on the downward spiral. And that's why I think it's so important to talk about this issue for once, because you have to have a, sort of, a good relationship to your self-image, to your self-perception and how to arrive at one that is constantly expanding with what you're doing. 


Monika Yes, I really love the word that you used now at the end especially, an expansion. Like, the word expanding your self-definition, your self-perception is something that we oftentimes don't do intentionally, and we describe ourselves in a certain way. We find definitions of ourselves, and then we tend to stick with them and we forget to actually question them again. And we forget to update them in accordance with all the experiences that we've had in between. Also, the things that we've learned about others, about ourselves. And this is something that I'm reminded of when I think about George Bernard Shaw's quote oftentimes. I actually referenced very recently in a coaching session with a client as well. He said the only person who act sensibly is my tailor. He takes my measure anew. Every time he sees me, everyone else goes by their old measurements. When we think about it, we oftentimes describe ourselves or think of ourselves in measurements that we put on ourselves, like maybe five years ago, ten years ago. Sometimes we go back to the childhood, actually, where we talk about when someone describes themselves as lazy or the topic of not being good enough also is oftentimes primed for a lot of experiences where you have learned that you are not good enough in something. Like, let's take away the self esteem and value proposition, but now look at the competence level. If you have learned in several situations that you are not good enough in something. Yes, sure, you started out as a beginner at some point. We all do. But if you don’t, like, integrate the experiences of growth that you have had in between then and now. If you don't integrate your successes and then acknowledge your new state, you will still work with an image of yourself like a beginner or someone who has just started out, while others will look at you - and this will then create that discrepancy - others will look at you for guidance. They will look at you and want you to take more responsibility. They will see your skills and your talents and they won't understand why you undervalue yourself. So, they will actually think that maybe there's something in the background that they don't see that might justify why you still see yourself in this way, and therefore they might not trust you again. So this also then of course, influences how other people see you if you don't update your self-image as well. 


Patrick Well, that's basically how you sell yourself. It's what you said at the beginning of the episode when, when you said you were going to all these festivals, you hear people presenting themselves and that self-image, that self-perception is basically what you can see when people are introducing themselves and talking about themselves. That's the hard part, because you are… You're supposed to introduce yourself and sell yourself at one point, and especially when you're an entrepreneur. And then that self-perception kicks in. How do you talk about what you're doing, how good you are, am I capable of selling this service or whatever you're doing? Can I even do that? 


Monika And most of the time it actually starts way more subtly. So you actually start seeing how people perceive themselves, how they think of themselves already in who they choose to talk to. Who do they choose to approach? It's way more reflected also in actions in, in little sentences that they phrase. And this is also where looking at it from a psychological or coaching perspective, we can very quickly also start working on the topic is to catch yourself in these little moments and to question, Wait a second, why did I describe myself in a seemingly unimportant like sentence that you just dropped, “by the way… something.” You can start noticing, Why am I, am I describing myself in this way? Why am I undervaluing myself in this way? Or maybe even with a good self-perception, why am I taking this for granted that this is going to be something that is going to be important in this situation? I can see a lot of my clients who are very strong, very resilient, very also experienced in dealing with hardships that they have this self-image of themselves, that things… that they can deal with difficult situations. But if they are not aware of this self-image and don't start to question a little bit, also, why do I think that things have to be hard? Oftentimes, they will approach situations that could actually be easy in a way that shows to themselves again, “I am resilient”, meaning they make it harder for themselves than it actually has to be. This is a good example of where a situation or a description of yourself is useful in a certain situation, but in another situation it might not even be necessary. But if you have this very fixed self-image of yourself, you will start to reproduce the same qualities, the same experiences, because you are just too… a little bit too narrow and a little bit too rigid in your description of yourself, in order to allow yourself a little bit more flexibility to enjoy the full bandwidth of experiences, you know. 


Patrick And that's where I think the the storytelling part is so important. It's basically what you tell yourself about what you did up to this point in your life. Because when I think back, I started in the industry doing an assistant job and then gradually production coordinator, production manager, and the projects got bigger and I got more responsibility with different projects internationally and nationally. When you think back, it was a great journey to do all this. I saw everything, but in that moment you don't really see it. You're just surrounded by the work that you have to do, and you hear about other people having so many different projects, better projects where the comparison is basically coming in that we talked about a few episodes back. But you have to compare yourself in that case, because you have to sort of define where you are. Which level are you on? The important thing, though, is you have to do it both ways. You have to compare yourself up and you have to compare yourself down. That's what I think is important. So you can actually get a sort of realistic level, which helps then to get a self-perception how good you actually are. 


Monika I think you are talking about now the self-perception and the self-image you have in relationship to the level of your competence, right? 


Patrick Obviously, when I have the competence in a certain field of work, I can do certain jobs, but it's also helping, How do I sell myself? How do I present myself? What did I do with this experience? Because there are so many things you learn in a job that you need to fulfill a role. On the other hand, you learn so many other things in a job that basically shape your self-perception, how you act in those roles. For me at least, it's very important to compare yourself always a bit that you get to this level of self-perception. 


Monika Definitely a lot of other influences, a lot of other experiences, also touch points with other people can give us the necessary contrast that we need in order to see where do I stand? They can give us orientation, and they can also show us new examples of how other people approach a situation, how other people talk about themselves. Because otherwise we are like a fish in water. We don't realize the way that we talk about ourselves, because a lot of the times this is so subconscious and it's so automatic already. We don't really realize it unless we are prompted to go in situations where this specific aspect of our self-perception is then actualized and highlighted, either because it's contrasted or because it's activated and we need it. A great exercise, though, in relationship to that, that our listeners could always do when they go into a situation or where they, when they go out of a situation is to ask themselves, okay, what am I going to do here? Or what did I do in a certain situation? Also reflecting years back, you can do this. And then ask yourself, what does this tell me about myself? Who am I as I see myself doing this? What do other people maybe even think of me as I do this? And therefore questioning your self-perception and maybe also using other people's ideas and perceptions of you, or at least what you think that other people's perceptions of you are. Because oftentimes we project a lot of things onto them as well, but it's useful to then really get clear on the way that you see yourself in situations that are important for you. And now in this context, talking about leaders and entrepreneurship, of course, these kinds of situations where you have to prove yourself, where you go into the next level experience, where you take on a new challenge or where you are actually needed as a leader in contact with other people. It's so useful to reflect on these situations afterwards as well, and to really dig a little bit deeper in how this influences and/or how this showcases who you think you are. And then also questioning, is this useful for me? Because oftentimes we will then have or notice that we have certain self descriptions and self perceptions that might not be actually useful. 


Patrick But when you talk about this self-image now, basically everything that you're saying is you need a kind of openness and you need to be ready to grow. Because yes, we need to arrive at one point at a picture of our self. External factors shape it. We tell our own story about ourselves, but then we arrive at this, and basically all that you said right now is be open and grow all the time. 


Monika Well, yes and no. Of course, now we are talking about critical situations and we are questioning the whole topic. As a coach, of course, also I am way more called for in situations where this self-perception or this self-image is not useful. Where people are trying to update it or trying to empower themselves in a way where we find out then that the self perception is maybe not aligned. On the other hand, though, having a certain fixed self-image can be very useful because it's not practical to question yourself all the time, every day, and every experience and every contact with other people that you have. We don't work this way. This is also why we have stereotypes. This is also why we have categories in our head, because our brain needs them in order to make quick decisions and to be able to act and move forward in a certain time frame. So there is this one model that is very useful when we think about fixed, flexible self-image and growth processes. And I don't know whether you remember it. I know that we talked about it at university, but this is Lewin's three step change model where he actually describes how everything we have, we do, the beliefs that we have also can be changed, modified and questioned by actually unfreezing the fixed perceptions that we have, then changing them, but also then the third stage is again freezing them so we can become more effective and efficient again. We need the freezing stage, of course, again, because this gives us orientation, this gives us clarity and this gives us agency. 


Patrick I also think it's good to have a certain fixed perception of yourself. And I'm not saying that you basically throw out the whole thing and then start over again, but I'm hearing a lot of you still have to grow. You have this fixed thing and you build upon layer, layer, layer. But there's also some things that are changed when you grow and when you learn. 


Monika Well, I think the difference is whether you are aware that you have fixed the self-perception or not. If you think that this fixed self-perception is something that just is. So the absolute reality, the absolute truth, you will no longer be able to question it when the time comes and it calls… the situation calls for it. However, if you are aware that this is a fixed self-perception and you are fine with it, but when a moment arises where you are just either experimenting, because you have the capacity, the resources, whatever, or where you notice, wait a second, something is not quite working in the way that I want to. Maybe it's time to question my fixed self perceptions. This gives you again the freedom and the flexibility to deal with it in an intentional way. However, if you are not aware of it. If you are not aware that you have already fixed a certain aspect of yourself or a certain self-perception, you are going to be blinded to this side of yourself. And this is where then the problems come in. The fixed self-perception itself is not so much the problem in itself, the awareness about it. 


Patrick Well then how would you say, would you become aware of it? I mean, yes, we all know that we have a certain image about ourselves, but what you're describing is to approach it with an open mindedness that you see certain things that maybe some people don't see about themselves. But how do I approach that? 


Monika First of all, take note. Notice when you are describing yourself. Also in conversation with yourself, you will notice a lot of self descriptions. Start not when you talk with others, but in how you talk with yourself about yourself. And then once you have found this fixed self-perception, ask yourself is this useful? Like, what is the benefit of thinking this about myself and describing myself in this way? And what is the cost? Maybe because… everything as we know has a benefit and a cost to it. And the third thing then is ask yourself, are there any exceptions to this? Have I ever behaved differently? Have I felt differently in certain situations? This already opens you up to a more nuanced perception of yourself. But then, of course, if you go into a process of questioning this a lot and really deconstructing - because this is what you are doing, you are deconstructing your self-perception - you have to at some point also stop, choose a certain self-image and then freeze, fix it again so you can go out and try out this new approach. If you pick a new approach. Go for it and try it out. Collect evidence. This is something that many of my clients do in between two sessions, of course. First we deconstruct it, then we choose a certain self-perception. Then I send them out for two weeks, go into experiences and try to prove this self-perception to yourself. And then after two weeks, they come back and we reflect on it. This is something that everyone can do.


Patrick Yeah. And I think it's a little bit like trial and error. Actually, you just have to go out. And does it actually work for me because you basically go out with a different version of yourself that you're presenting to people. Maybe sometimes it works. Maybe there are things that don't work because they just don't feel authentic to yourself. Maybe you don't want to talk about yourself in a certain way, and it feels wrong to have this story not align perfectly with yourself. So I would actually say, just go out and try it. I mean, honestly, try it with your friends and some people that you know, they will actually tell you first. Is there something that feels off and then you can still go back to the drawing board and say, okay, I like this. I like that part. And then just putting it together, put the pieces together. 


Monika Two things though. First, yes, your friends will tell you that something is off. But this doesn't mean that this is a bad development. Oftentimes, people will simply not notice that something has changed and they will not know how to deal with this yet. So they will tell you that something is off. Maybe they will also not say this in a positive way. I wouldn't actually take this instantly as a sign that you need to go back to the drawing board and challenge this. 


Patrick Honestly, I would never take any feedback 100%, no matter who it comes from. And it's like the closest people in my life even take it, think about it and think about how it works for you. Maybe there's something in there that means just a little change for you and not a complete turnaround. 


Monika And also be willing to stick it through for a certain period of time to give other people also the chance to get comfortable with your growth. If they don't, if they don't, it's in your responsibility and also in your power to decide whether you want to go back on this development or maybe go into a different direction, or whether this is something where you notice that people are just simply working with a fixed perception of you, and they want you to stick to this certain image because for whatever reason. Maybe they want you to be predictable. Maybe they love this old version of you, and this is why they don't want you to change it. And then you will have to question yourself about what's the cost of sticking to this old image. 


Patrick Well, people love to do things that they have been doing for quite a while, and they, they don't like change. That's it. I mean, they're used to you being a certain way, and then suddenly you show up and you're, I don’t know, more confident, more outgoing something. And they're like, whoa, what's going on there? 


Monika Yes. And this doesn't mean… some people, we have to be honest here, some people don't really want to see you empower yourself because for whatever reason, it gives them a certain sense of security, safety, whatever it is. 


Patrick Power, sometimes.


Monika Power sometimes, control, of course. So not everyone wants you to thrive and grow and develop yourself into more of who you actually could be. But also sometimes it's not that they are against you growing, but you have… from the moment where you started, that something is not really aligned, that something feels inauthentic, that something doesn't feel right to the moment where you have started to question this, to change this, to this moment where you have decided on a new way of approaching a situation, dealing with a situation, and then actually implementing it. Oftentimes, there has been so much time for you to allow for, acknowledge and accept this growth. And then suddenly people are confronted with this. Where you are already, let's say, on a scale from where you started to ten, already having kind of the final product, you are at stage five and they get to know about this whole process only when you are at stage five and they start at stage zero. So sometimes you really do have to give people time - doesn’t mean to hold yourself back or to stop what you are doing - but give them time to get more comfortable and familiar again with this new version of you. However, there's one thing that you also said before in that I do want to say that you have to be careful about when you choose a certain self-image or self-perception about yourself. And this is just like you said, to choose something that feels authentic and to be very careful when you choose certain things, traits, behaviors, feelings, whatever self descriptions that you think you should use on yourself because you have seen other people use it. I see this very often with people who look at role models and who want to learn from them, which is not a bad thing to do. Like role models can be very useful. However, I see people - and we have also talked about this in a prior episode - I have seen people choose superficial information or also define a certain desired state, desired self-description too quickly that they then freeze, fix and think that this is the new “should” ideal standard. Without doing exactly what you said before taking it and trying it out, testing it for themselves, and allowing themselves this period of experimentation where they can actually then grow into this and feel whether this is aligned and true to themselves or not. This is a huge mistake that I see with a lot of people do, but they have these should sentences. I should be this way, I should feel this way. I should see myself in this way. And then they try to put themselves in a box and again, before they have put themselves in a box because of automated and outdated self perceptions. And now they put themselves in a box because they describe a should state, where again they limit themselves and corner themselves too quickly. 


Patrick I think it's a little bit based on comparison when you see other people, and obviously it has a lot to do with social media and the way people present themselves, and they think then, This is something that works for other people. So it obviously has to work for me. I'm getting more successful if I do this because the person on social media is doing this or that. Yes, that's a problem. And yes, I do think you should give yourself some more time with this. It's a journey. It's a process. It's well, obviously it doesn't really work like social media. It's not instant gratification. It's not instantly, and there it is. It’s… Yeah, I hear that from some younger people starting in our industry right now, where I can see this mindset of things have to work out really fast. Unfortunately, with the self-perception part, it's something - from, speaking from my personal experience - it just doesn't work overnight. You have to give it time to figure out where you are, where you stand in all of this, what you really want to do. So basically what I'm trying to say is give yourself some time. Figure it out on your own terms, and then you will arrive at something that will work for you.


Monika In the end, just like we said before, you are constantly going to grow and change through your experiences, so your self-perception and your self-description hopefully will never have reached a point where you are just like so sure that this is it, that you are not going to renew it over the next 30 to 40 years. 


Patrick If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your fellow entrepreneurs so they can listen to. Grab the link in our show notes and send it to them. 


Monika If you're looking to join our tribe of movers and shakers to get a sense of belonging and fresh insights, join our Pioneers Club community. The link to our community is waiting for you in our show notes as well. 


Patrick And don't forget to connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram and let us know what was a helpful thought or insight that you gained from this episode. 


Monika Have any questions or ideas for us? Head over to our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and tell us we read every submission and would love to answer your question in a later episode too. So thanks for joining us. 


Patrick See you in the next one.