The Pioneers Club
The community podcast for driven entrepreneurs and leaders.
Here you can connect with like-minded people, create a sense of belonging, and gain practical insights you need to gain more mental & emotional agency and resilience for your daily life.
We, your host Monika (certified mental & systemic coach) and co-host Patrick (entrepreneur & broadcast production manager), will answer your most burning questions, talk with exclusive guests, and share their own stories & experiences on how to deal with & thrive through the trials & tribulations of entrepreneurship.
The Pioneers Club
Unlocking the Art of Negotiation: Insights from Chris Voss' "Never Split the Difference"
In this episode of the Pioneers Club Podcast, we dive into Chris Voss' amazing book, Never Split the Difference.
We share our biggest "Aha!" moments talk about how negotiation is more than just trying to convince the other side or getting what you want. It's about exploring and discovering solutions together.
Also, we'll chat about why staying calm & clear is your secret weapon as self-awareness, self-control, and emotional regulation are key tools in any negotiation.
You'll learn about
2:52 - Changing how we approach negotiations & going into them with clarity
6:16 - Why it's important to avoid this one common trap in negotiations
10:28 - The key role of your mindset, self-awareness, self-control & emotional regulation in negotiating successfully
15:51 - Key takeaway: Reframing negotiations from battling for understanding to a process of discovery
20:36 - How to stay authentic in negotiations + working with your negotiation styles
28:54 - How to get started: Putting it into practice
Join us for a fun chat, packed with insights and tips that will change the way you look at your negotiating experiences. Whether you're negotiating at work, at home, or anywhere else, this episode is for you!
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Your Host:
Monika Lerch
https://www.monikalerch.com/
Linkedin: /in/monikalerch/
Instagram: @themonikalerch
Your Co-Host:
Patrick Öffl
https://www.amikifilms.com/
Linkedin: /in/patrickoeffl/
Instagram: @patrickoeffl
Monika This is the Pioneers Club podcast.
Patrick The community podcast for driven entrepreneurs and leaders.
Monika Here you can connect with like minded people, create a sense of belonging and gain more agency in your daily life. Hi, my name is Monika and I'm your host. I help impact driven freelancers, entrepreneurs and leaders live their full potential and go from feeling overwhelmed, stuck and confused to being confident, clear-headed and focused as they go after their goals. As a mindset and systemic coach, I focus primarily on topics such as confidence, high performance, self coaching and self leadership and use my mindfulness based and systemic approach to help my clients thrive with more ease.
Patrick And I'm your co-host, Patrick, an entrepreneur just like you. I'm an international media producer working on live sports, premium documentaries and digital content. I help people bring their stories to life and work with a global network of partners to create engaging content. I live through the topics of our podcast, just like you, and I will try to ask the questions you might have.
Here we are again. Welcome back to another episode of The Pioneers Club with another book that we're going to discuss. And I'm going to be honest here, I just finished it like half an hour ago, and it's quite a handful. It's really a lot. That book is so good, but it's a lot.
Monika So for our listeners to know what we are talking about, actually. We are talking about the book Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, which was, for both of us, an extremely enjoyable read, but also an intense read because it is so jam-packed with all kinds of insights, mindset shifts, tools, strategies, little formulations, and little approaches that you can start implementing this very day once you have read the book. But it's so full of them that once you have read the book, for me at least, this was the impression that I had. Once I had finished the last page, I felt as if I could go back straight to the first page again and read it anew, because it's just so much to process.
Patrick I would actually say it's not an easy read, because it's not just something that you browse through and you just… page after page and it's a feel good thing and then you know, you can implement it. It was so much work to keep my focus on the book, because you actually had all these ideas. And as you said, those mindset shifts, for instance, how to deal with the No and how to deal with other people's silence, for instance. There's so much going into that thought and you immediately think about all the negotiations you have. And I think that's the power of the book. It is about negotiation. And as negotiation is a part of all of our lives, every single day, everyone knows what he's talking about.
Monika We all live those situations on a daily basis, and still most of us have never quite approached them with the self-awareness and with the intentionality that this book proposes, right? You go into all kinds of situations where you have certain needs, expectations, even conflicts. The clarity with which we approach it is oftentimes lacking.
Patrick I think the clarity thing is something that's really important because, as he says, and I mean, let's just take a look at the cover, at the title of the book, Never split the difference. We all go into so many negotiations and discussions, even where we think, okay, if we find a compromise, it's fine. Everyone has to compromise a little bit and we're all happy with it. And that's the one thing that he says immediately don't ever do it. And I think with that comes the expectation of being clearer, because you actually have to think about what do I want at the end of this negotiation? Where do I want to go with this? What's my goal? Where are my deal breakers? Where is the red line that I'm not crossing? So just by looking at the title, I think there is immediately the sense of clarity that you have to have when you start reading that book.
Monika It's very sharp, it's very direct and honest, and at the same time, it's so complex because it acknowledges the reality and the messy human nature that we introduce in all of our interactions. Of course, that is the foundation upon which we then have negotiations. What you just talked about is what he also calls this zone of possible agreement, right. If we think about negotiations as a really rational agreement, as a rational discussion, of course, then you can discuss where is the common ground, where is an overlap, maybe in our expectations. How much can you afford? How much am I willing to go down in my prices. And then once there is an overlap, great. We agree on that. But in reality, negotiations, most discussions are not only about rational arguments. Right? So we know that a lot of what we bring into these things, into these conversations are our most personal needs, our need also for worth, value. What we talked about in our last episode, our need for acknowledgement, our need for safety, our needs. So many different things that are not rationally based. If you approach these kinds of situations with the expectation that everything should be around rational arguments, you fall into the trap of what he calls the I am normal paradox. You assume that your way of looking at the situation is rational and founded, and therefore it's also the point of view that the other person should be taking. So both your approaches should be actually similar, which is, as he calls it, one of the biggest pitfalls in going into a situation, expecting that the other person sees the reality of a situation in the same way as you do.
Patrick If only it were that simple, I mean, then we wouldn't have to negotiate so hard all the time. But I’m afraid that there's also something that my industry contributes to that. I mean, if you look at movies and shows out there, for instance, most of the time when negotiations are on screen and you see them, it's made out that the person in front of you, the person across from you, that’s the problem. That person is the problem. And if we get rid of that person, the problem doesn't exist anymore. So in difference to what Chris Voss says, that the issue is actually the thing that we have to talk about, the thing that we have to get rid of. You basically say, yeah, that person exists. I can’t ignore it, obviously, but the person as a person is not my problem. I have to deal with the issue, so I have to take the emotion out of it. But that's unfortunately not how drama works. That's not how the media works. Movies and shows sell because of the drama. So we're in a bit of a different situation when we watch these kinds of movies, and we're educated to think that the person across from us, that's the problem. Unfortunately, though, it's not that simple.
Monika Well, it's usually also one of the biggest language introduced barriers that I see with people that we also use language that describes people as fixed personalities when they do something. So for example, when we talk about this as well in our language usage, you see that we don't talk about people behaving a certain way. We say that they are a certain way. We don't say someone behaves lazily, we say someone is lazy because we have observed him in a certain situation, or we when someone is disrespecting us and speaking harshly to us, we don't say, you talk to me in a rude way. We say, hey, you are rude. So actually we are already attributing it to the personality. And this is a huge pitfall when it comes to negotiating with people when it comes to going into conflict situations, or even when it comes to approaching people in an open minded state and trying to keep this state because you don't want to corner someone into having to defend their personality. And this is what then Chris Voss also talks about, which is a mindset. And this is why mindset is so important in all of this, even though the book gives plenty of skill sets and tools and really strategies of how to formulate things and how to take a negotiation step by step towards your goal. But the mindset that he introduces, the mindset of holding someone in unconditionally positive regard. So actually, just like you said, seeing the person as your partner in this conversation, in trying to solve an issue instead of seeing the other one as your counterpart in a battle.
Patrick Yeah, he's not the enemy basically. It’s… you're both there on that table trying to figure out how to solve an issue. It's not, I have to get rid of that person. That's quite interesting. And that's also goes hand in hand with what he says about you have to take the emotion out of it. You basically link the emotion, your own emotion to that other person, and suddenly it's not about that issue anymore. And it's just about, okay, how do I feel about certain things? So it's complicating everything.
Monika A lot of times we are projecting so many emotions, so many fears, hopes, even emotions that are not anchored in the present. So things that we have experienced at some earlier point of time and now we are in a similar situation, not the same, but in a similar. Now we are projecting all of these things onto a completely new conversation partner. Then of course, you are no longer acting in the reality of a situation, but you are acting in the stories that you tell yourself about the situation. So a big part of my coaching work with my clients is, in fact, differentiating between what actually happened and what are the stories, the meanings, the assumptions that we have about this situation, about this reality that we experienced, that then trigger us to judge a certain situation, to interpret the situation in a certain way. And that's also why I was very happy to read, but also very fascinated to read that Chris Voss actually said that the very first thing that he talks about with new negotiators that he trains is the importance of self-control, the importance of self-control and emotional regulation, because otherwise, all the great strategies that you can find in this book won't help you if you don't manage to really regulate yourself and to keep this open minded, empathic state and mindset in order to then take intentional steps that will build a constructive conversation.
Patrick The thing is, though, it's the most important thing to start a negotiation, to get yourself in that mindset where you consider all of these things that are emotionally linked to yourself, to someone else, to… I don't know where the negotiation takes place, what’s the surrounding area of everything, …
Monika When you choose to have the conversation…
Patrick Exactly. All of these things make it, they make it so hard for you to take those emotions out. And that's why I think, okay, it's it's a little bit easy in the book. Easier, I think, than it might be in reality. But it's just one thing on top of all the other skill sets that he basically discusses in this book that you can just not read about, go out and implement. It's something you literally have to read, reread, implement, reread and go back again. It's more of a how to guide basically, that you always go back to. You read a chapter, you reread a chapter, and then you implement it in real life with someone.
Monika And you have to consider he has many years of experience, like he's so experienced in this whole self control, emotional regulation, because he has had a lot of training as well. He actually talks about how he oftentimes had this team that was consulting with him. So when you look at our audience thinking about the negotiations they go into and how they approach these situations, they are oftentimes very alone. We as entrepreneurs, as leaders, don't have a lot of people with which we can actually really reflect on the situation. Where we have a sparring partner who will reflect back to us on a very highly trained and skilled level already, when it comes to this emotional regulation part, when it comes to the skill sets of negotiation and when it comes to actually kind of brainstorming. Also, what might be the best approach and the best strategy to choose and even write down a script maybe for this specific situation. So the expectations that we put on ourselves to ace and excel at every negotiation after reading this book, I think it would be unfair because there is just so much that goes into it. And I appreciate him a lot for how he presents this in this book, because it comes through so clearly, that this is a skill set that you - once you start building the awareness for it, that's already a great first step because you are way further ahead than most people already then. But then it becomes something where it's about training, training, training, practicing the self-awareness, practicing reviews, practicing preparation. And he openly talks about about a lot of situations in which he actually failed and how he learned from that. So which goes also into this part where he talks about being able in a conflict or in a negotiation, to walk away from the deal, so to never have to be needy in a situation, because you will have to account for the reality of things, you will fail at certain negotiations. There will be a percentage of negotiations, not just once you start learning it, but also afterwards where the situation is not really in your favor. He also talks about these situations where he obviously can differentiate whether the other side is actually interested in coming to a good agreement with you, and there are certain situations when you will have to be honest and be like, okay, the other party is simply not interested in finding a good solution for the two of us. And then you will have to know whether this is a deal breaker for you. And I hope that we will have our boundaries set clear, that we will not be cornered in this situation, so we are free to make an informed and authentic choice in that moment.
Patrick So we've talked a lot about the mindset that's important to have these kinds of negotiations, and also the mindset you need to implement all the skill sets that he's been talking about in the book. Let's dive into the book and what we actually took from it, because we've been discussing it for quite a while now, and I think we should just focus on a few of these things because this book, like we said before, it's so dense, there's so much in a single chapter in there. You just… I mean, we could talk for hours about this and we would still be here and probably just be discussing the first or second chapter of it. But diving into the key lessons, what were your one or two things that you say are so important that you took from this book?
Monika What I especially liked about the book was his whole shift in looking at negotiations, not as a situation of battling someone, of trying to compromise with someone, but actually, as he calls it, a process of discovery. Where he is discussing this whole situation in a much more complex way, with all these parts that we talked about right now, what it means to go into these situations with open mindedness, with curiosity, how to keep someone else in unconditional positive regard, the importance of listening to someone else and not trying to convince them to listen to you so you will be understood. Something that I can see so many times is this misconception that we think once the other party will understand us, this will automatically lead to success. And oftentimes that's not really the entry point to have a constructive discussion about what we want to achieve together. As he puts it, it's not about you trying to get understanding from the other side and the other side, trying to get understanding from you. Rather, it's about letting go of this illusion of being understood or the illusion of normal, of all these illusions that come into this. Letting go of the projections of the emotions that we have in this and choosing an open minded, curious approach in which you go into this discovery with the tools that he then introduces and have a constructive, positive, respectful conversation with someone that still leads to a clear goal. I really liked his approach on that.
Patrick It's quite interesting because I also think one of the most important things in the book is actually that he's talking about listening and building trust, which some people might regard as a weakness in negotiation, because it’s… you're taking a step back. You listen actively to the other person, and you're trying to build trust. You're trying to make the other person understand. And yes, that understanding part is quite important. And as you just said, understanding someone doesn't necessarily mean that there's a compromise around this or the negotiation is over. Understanding also doesn't mean that I have to agree with you. I can understand you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with that. And I would do that now and I would change my approach.
Monika Huge difference.
Patrick Exactly. And it's quite interesting that this is one of the, for me, at least one of the primary things in the book, because I have to negotiate all the time. And I changed a bit of the perception of what negotiation is, especially when it comes to understanding, because you always think that if the other party basically understands where you're coming from, why you set a certain price, why you set certain boundaries and limits, then it's like, okay, and now they have to agree with me. No, that's not their issue. You don't need to agree with anyone.
Monika He kind of turns the whole situation around where he… A lot of the preparation work that I could recognize in this book is about defining your values, your emotions, your impulses and triggers and your goals. But then going into the whole conversation with your counter part, you actually shift the focus onto them. You ask questions all the time. You don't try to force them into saying that you are right, that your perception is the right one or something. Even he warns against people saying to you, you are right.
Patrick Yeah, he actually warns about that. And he's like, oh, we don't want people to say you’re right. We basically want them to say, that's right, which is more of a generalist term, rather than saying, yeah, whatever you said is right.
Monika And not just that it's a generalistic term. It's actually… he phrases it in a way where it's a sign of appreciation because you have rephrased what they have told you, so they feel understood. That's a whole different shift in this conversation, because you don't try anymore to bring your point of view onto the table and to be understood, but you actually try to understand the other person and see where they are coming from. You try to discover the known knowns, so the things that are obvious in a situation. You also try to discover the things that you don't know about the situation, but yet that you do know that are kind of influencing the situation. And then you also try to account for and discover the things that you don't know are there, but that you know would change the whole situation. So this is what he calls black swans, situations or things that are unexpected and change the whole dynamic of a situation. And going into this, with this degree of awareness for the complexity that goes into this already allows you to be very mindful in this conversation. It also allows you to be authentic because there is no one right way to go into that. But it also gives you so much more freedom because you are calibrating and you are working with so many strings that it's not just this traditional way that we have been taught, maybe also through media, because they are presenting negotiations in a very specific way, this assertive, clear, direct way in which you have to present yourself.
Patrick It's always in the movies that if you're assertive, that's the way to go. And that's how you win every conversation. You have one argument and it wins everything.
Monika Especially if you take the female point of view on this topic. There are cultural limits to how assertive a woman is able to present herself without getting a certain stigma or a certain stereotype attached to her name. So a lot of the recommendations that I have seen in the psychological, the personal development, but also in the sales and marketing seen are by men, adaptable and okay maybe for certain types of men, this typical alpha men stereotype. But for more, let's say, mindful soft, maybe co-operative types, and definitely for a lot of women, it is not an entry to successful negotiations to simply choose the approach “I have to be assertive every time that I go into a negotiation”. And that's why I love the book so much, because it gives you so many more options.
Patrick The good thing about it is he also says that you're not 100% one type. You're not either assertive or accommodating or the analyst, the three basic negotiating types that he coins. Basically, you're shifting a little bit in between those roles depending on where you are in the negotiation. So I can be assertive in one part of the conversation and a little bit more accommodating in the other. But generally, he says, you are one or the other. And I actually agree with you on this because it basically opens up a bit more possibilities. Once you know that unlike in other literature or books out there, where it's basically you do tests and then you find out, oh, I'm this type, I'm this type. It opens up more possibilities for you to go into a negotiation, to…We also talked about this one phrase that he coined where he said, to be good, you have to learn to be yourself at the bargaining table. It means you have to really appreciate yourself to find out who you are. Going back to the overall issue of our podcast this year, how to be authentic. Yes. Find out who you are. What's your negotiation style? Where are you assertive? Where are you accommodating and play to your strengths and also find out where are your own pitfalls? I mean, he basically gives you all these tools. And then you find out, okay, maybe I am an accommodating type. What’s… what’s an accommodating type going to do in a negotiation. He gives you an overview. And then when you think about it, it helps you to say, okay, maybe I'm rambling on a bit, maybe I'm going to stop because I'm not really focused on a clear goal. So this book helps you to understand all those possibilities and be better at the negotiation table.
Monika Yet at the same time, these styles that he introduces, they come at a relatively late point in this book because before that, he already builds a whole toolbox of strategies and gives them to you in a certain frame also, with the right mindset, with the right approach to these kinds of situations, and then also with all kinds of tools. I mean, I can just mention a few, and I would barely scratch the surface, you know, like when it comes to the three types of Yes, how he uses calibrated questions. One of his biggest lessons in all of this, how he uses certain types of questions in order to open up certain directions in the communication flow. He gives you all these kinds of informations before then actually giving you a pretty open description of what kind of style you might have adopted throughout your childhood, throughout your former experiences that you have perfected at some point, and the values that you attach to this style.
Patrick The good thing about this is, though, that you're not 100% in a box. He basically says, stay flexible, adapt your styles and your tools that I'm giving you. So he's not pushing you into one box where you have to stay. And so maybe that's the reason why it's so late in the book, and also why the tools and all the skills that you can use are way before in the book. So you can use them no matter what kind of type you are.
Monika That's exactly it. I think he is playing a lot into this argument of practicing self-awareness and acquiring the skill set of self leadership with the right tools, so you are free enough and flexible enough in every situation to react accordingly to the situation. And to have a clear understanding of what is happening, to be able to analyze it in a constructive way and still keep your goals in mind. I don't know how you see it, but for me, this idea of going into negotiations in this way is so freeing because you have so many different kinds and ways of looking at a situation, of going into this situation. And at the same time, though, it is a huge responsibility.
Patrick Well, that's what I just wanted to say. It's also a little bit frightening because when you look at the book, there's so much preparation going into, well into something what seems like a simple negotiation, which it isn’t. Because you always have to be very clear on what you want. Who you are in that negotiations? Where are your strengths? Where are you pitfalls? How do you use your voice? How do you use like the tools that you mentioned before, the calibrated questions, the mirroring, the labelling, everything that's in this book… Well, it is complicated on one side. On the other side, if you actually get into it and learn how to use it, it's not that mysterious thing anymore. But still, it's also, in the beginning, especially frightening because you have to have an understanding of all these things. Funny thing, though, the mirroring, it can be so weird when you start out to do it. Because it's like you sit across someone and then, well, now Chris Voss basically says, now mirror him and just repeat the last 3 to 5 words or the last sentence. Don't add anything. And you sit across from that person and you're like, this really seems so stupid. And then you put it into practice and it works.
Monika Well, I will tell you that many of the things that we are practicing and trying out and learning anew in this kind of sphere - so what I mean, this kind of sphere is the communication, the interrelational part of our lives - is oftentimes so weird and strange when we go into it, because we try influencing and approaching these conversations by observing ourselves and intentionally choosing a certain behavior and looking out for how it works, how the other person is reacting to this new way of us behaving. So it feels weird, of course, simply because we are not used to going into these kinds of situations with a calibrated, intentional way. We are very much used to going into conversations with other people, into interactions, and just try to be ourselves. We are not intentionally trying new tools of how am I going to talk to this person? Maybe I will start the conversation differently. If you do that, it usually has a big purpose behind that. So sales conversations or whatever it is, in which situations you then oftentimes, especially in big corporations, you have trainings, you have scripts, you have guides.
Patrick But we are already in the middle of putting it into practice. I mean, we've talked about so many things right now, all those tools that are in the negotiation toolbox, basically. How do we start now with this? I mean, the mirroring story is one thing where you basically sit across from someone and you just try it. And yeah, you said it’s… it's weird because we're not used to it basically. But what are some easy things that you would say we could start with? I mean, not everyone is basically going out now and reading the whole book.
Monika Even though you definitely should
Patrick I agree, you definitely should read this book. It’s… it's been a bit frightening to look at the description of the book and then going into it. Having read it now, it's basically one of the most recommendable books I have read ever. Period.
Monika Period. I can 100% second that.
Patrick But now, going back to putting it into practice, what would you say are some strategies that you can put into practice right now?
Monika Okay, so I will give you four strategies actually, of how to start putting this into practice without having to read already through the whole book and having to implement all the strategies that he teaches you in this book, because there are a lot.
So strategy number one, cultivate an open minded, curious and non-judgmental mindset. This is exactly what we already talked about. Not assuming that your way of looking at the situation is the truth, but actually knowing that what you are projecting onto a situation is oftentimes not rooted in the reality of the situation, in the factual observations that you can do, but already in interpretations, in things, stories that you are telling yourself. So shifting out of that and going into more curious mindset where you try to question what you are seeing.
Second, know your impulses, triggers and fears. But this is something that you need to prepare beforehand because you really can’t - in a situation where you're trying to achieve a goal, in a situation where you are faced with someone else that you then should be empathic and curious about - to then actually also recognize your triggers, your fears and deal with them in this situation would be overwhelming for anyone, and it takes away from your freedom to already account for your needs and account for your emotional regulation beforehand.
The third strategy is to invest time and energy and effort into preparation and review. He is talking about so many situation and giving case studies, and in every single one, it's clear that he has so much preparation going into this situation about knowing exactly what he wants. Knowing exactly what the desired outcome would be, and also knowing exactly when he would walk away from the deal. Because sometimes it's better to have no deal than to have a deal. It's important to stay resourceful, so to not be needing the situation, but actually have alternatives. And also it's important to always then look back and have a review at what happened, how the deal worked out, actually, what you might have missed and to learn from the situation. Most of us don't really approach these kinds of situations with this degree of consideration and intentionality.
And the fourth strategy. Practice, practice, practice. And what I mean with that is role play. A lot of the times in my coaching, I will actually role play certain situations and go through the situations beforehand mentally, emotionally in order to prepare my clients for a critical, potentially overwhelming situation. Because as we know, you don't want to have to go through a critical or important situation and have to think about what you are going to say, how you are going to respond, how you are going to handle your emotions for the very first time as you actually try to stay in conversation, stay open minded and react to your partner in this conversation. You don't want to put yourself under the stress of having to handle everything for the first time in this critical situation, so role play is essential.
Patrick It's basically like the curiosity that he demands or asks from us. When you go into a negotiation to get information from your counterpart, that's how you reach a deal. That's the curiosity that you have to have going into any negotiation, and how to work on negotiation skills.
Monika To practice the curiosity, or to have the curiosity that will allow you to look at this whole process of learning how to negotiate and learning how to handle negotiations in a more in intentional, productive, constructive way.
Patrick I actually have to say, I really enjoyed going over the book again. I mean, it’s… I finished it today. Yes. It's been a long journey, though, going through the book because it's been so intense. But going through it again now, it's really interesting because I just feel like I really want to go back and read the book again, chapter by chapter, and then really putting it into practice. And yeah, honestly, like I just said before, it is the one book that I would recommend everyone to read. It's such… I wouldn't say it's an enjoyable read, because it just triggers my mind to be so fully immersed in everything and just want to go out and putting it all into practice like that very second. But then again, it is such a good book, everyone should read it.
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your fellow entrepreneurs so they can listen too. Grab the link in our show notes and send it to them.
Monika If you're looking to join our tribe of movers and shakers to get a sense of belonging and fresh insights, join our Pioneers Club community. The link to our community is waiting for you in our show notes as well.
Patrick And don't forget to connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram and let us know what was a helpful thought or insight that you gained from this episode.
Monika Have any questions or ideas for us? Head over to our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and tell us. We read every submission and would love to answer your question in a later episode too. So thanks for joining us.
Patrick See you in the next one.